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Meet the Devs: KaVir of God Wars II
What would the gaming industry be like, if there were no developers? There wouldn’t be one for starters!! So let’s meet a developer.
Here at GamingHUD.com, we don’t just cover the mainstream games. Nope, not at all. At our very core, we hold a love for Multi-User Dungeons that you just won’t find anywhere else on the net. Never heard of these Multi-User Dungeons or “MUDs” before? Here’s your history education on the genre right here, free of charge.
Moving right along, I had the opportunity to interview hobby developer Richard Woolcock (pictured left), better known as KaVir in the MUD community. KaVir created the original GodWars, which later became a codebase, of which there are 30+ MUDs running on it according to The MUD Connector.
After closing the original GodWars down, KaVir would later move on to create God Wars II, which in my opinion is one of the most complex and advanced MUDs I’ve ever played. The complexity and design can be a bit of a shock to experienced MUDders such as myself but the more recent addition of a client with graphical elements (MUSHclient for example) helps a lot in that regard.
Throughout the interview, there will be images taken from God Wars II. Clicking on the images will make them bigger and allow you to get a better view of what’s going on. Now onto the interview itself!
Dean: How and when did you get involved in online games, in particular MUDs?
KaVir: Shortly after starting University in 1993, I was introduced to a couple of custom MUDs written in Pascal that ran on the University network – they were pretty simple, but still good fun. Then over the Christmas break I met up with some old school friends who were back home visiting their families, and one of them told me about his experiences with MUDs. They sounded like great fun, and I was eager to try some out.
My University didn’t have direct internet access at that point, but there was an academic network called JANET which I learned to use as a bridge – I’d connect to other Universities through JANET, find a way to break out to a raw telnet prompt, and then connect outwards from there. At first I only found TinyMUD derivatives – MUSHes, MUCKs, etc. But I asked around, and eventually found someone who knew the addresses of more action-oriented MUDs. I played many MUDs over the next few months, but eventually settled down on a new but rapidly-growing DikuMUD called Realms of Despair.
I think it was pretty inevitable that I’d get involved with MUDs though. I’d started programming at the age of 12, had developed several single-player text adventure games from scratch while I was still in school, and in sixth-form College I’d written various custom network tools, including a talker that allowed me to chat with people at a different College. I’d also been roleplaying for many years by that point, and had designed several of my own systems and settings.
MUDs combined all the skills I’d taught myself over the years into a single hobby, and by 1995 I was developing and running my own. A year after that I graduated and started working as a software engineer, first in aerospace, then telecommunications, and now in the medical industry. But I’ve always remained interested in MUDs.
Dean: If you were explaining what a MUD was to someone who had never heard of them before, what would your explanation be?
KaVir: It would depend on the person. Sometimes I describe MUDs as being a bit like interactive novels, other times I say they’re like World of Warcraft or EverQuest except primarily text-based. When speaking to someone from a technical background I’ll sometimes point out that the graphical MMORPGs consist of two parts – a server and a client – and that the differences between a graphical MMORPG and text-based MUD lie primarily in the client.
Of course there are now text-based clients available for Second Life (primarily for the benefit of visually impaired players), while modern MUD clients are offering increasingly powerful graphical support, so we’re starting to see some crossover.
Dean: If you recommend one MUD that wasn’t your own, what would it be?
KaVir: There’s no “one size fits all” answer. It’s like recommending a movie or a flavour of ice cream – everyone likes something different, and it’s very much a matter of personal taste. If someone were looking for a solid all-round MUD with traditional gameplay I’d probably recommend Realms of Despair, but if they wanted a strict roleplaying environment I might instead suggest Harshlands or Atonement. I’d probably point fans of quests and exploration towards 4 Dimensions, and tell combat fanatics to go and try ConQUEST.
But most of all, I’d recommend trying a wide range of different MUDs, to get a real feel for what’s out there. Going back to the ice cream analogy for a moment, just because you like chocolate flavoured ice cream it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try other flavours as well! If you only ever play one MUD, you’ll never know what else you might be missing.
Dean: The manner in which the original GodWars codebase got out is every developer’s nightmare, hobbyist or big studio but has since gone on to become a house hold name (in the wider MUDding community) with 38 MUDs listed on The MUD Connector of varying size and flavours at the moment. 15 years on, how do you feel about this and what impact (if any) do you think the original GodWars codebase has had on the MUDding community?
KaVir: Although I was pretty angry about it at the time, the code was leaked after I’d already shut the MUD down, and I had no plans to ever reopen it. So in some ways it’s nice that the MUD at least left some sort of legacy behind, rather than vanishing completely, like many other MUDs have done.
However the number of GodWars MUDs has steadily declined over the years. At one point there were over a hundred of them, today there’s only about a third of that number. But on the other hand I’ve also seen a few GodWars features make their way into other MUDs, so I think the codebase has definitely had some influence on the larger MUDding community.
One thing that didn’t work out so well was trying to use the name and reputation of the original to help promote God Wars II. The theme might be generally the same, but the mechanics are so radically different that most hardcore GodWars player hate God Wars II – yet at the same time, those who hated the original often don’t even bother giving God Wars II a chance, because they assume it’ll be very similar.
Dean: When you embarked on God Wars II, what were your design goals and do you think you’ve accomplished them?
KaVir: After I shut down the original God Wars, I continued to develop the codebase, turning it into a much more complex MUD – it had extensive dynamic descriptions, a highly customisable combat system, an introduction system, a truly persistent world consisting of over a billion rooms, an account system which supported IC permadeath without losing OOC effort, a natural language parser, and so on.
However I found myself increasingly struggling to implement things that the DikuMUD architecture was never designed to handle – each room had its own x/y/z coordinate position, and each room also had internal coordinates for combat, but the concept of “rooms” was so integral to the codebase that I couldn’t get rid of it entirely. Likewise, when I wanted to let players pick up mobs and other players, or have players transform into objects, I had to use all sorts of dirty hacks and nasty workarounds.
The codebase became a mess, my design felt confined by the underlying architecture, and perhaps worst of all I got so caught up with “cool” features that there was very little in the way of actual gameplay – other MUD developers were often impressed when they saw what I’d implemented, but there were few real players. I got frustrated by my lack of progress, and eventually gave up on the MUD entirely.
But in April 2000, Erwin Andreasen announced the 16K MUD competition, and I tried my hand at creating a MUD from scratch. I’d occasionally thought about creating a God Wars II, but Erwin’s competition had given me the push I needed to start taking the idea seriously – I got in contact with a few friends, put together a design, developed a prototype for the combat system, and never looked back.
The general design goal of God Wars II was to create a game with the same theme and playing style as the original God Wars, as that had already proven successful – but to also design the architecture from the ground up to properly support the more advanced features I’d wanted to add over the years. Some of those features were dropped or redesigned because they didn’t fit the gameplay, or because they added realism at the expense of fun. But in general, I think God Wars II has successfully combined what I feel are the best of both worlds – a clear theme and fun gameplay, supported by detailed and innovative mechanics.
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Whoa. I always pictured Kavir as…older. Also, love muds as flavors of ice cream.
Being serious for a moment, very nice interview. I enjoy hearing all the mental processes of game creation.
[...] on the state of MUDs, and where I see them going in the future. You can read the interview here: Meet the Devs: KaVir of God Wars II – GamingHUD GamingHUD covers mainstream video games as well as MUDs, so I'm hoping it may draw some attention [...]
good interview, thanks.
I wonder if the future of muds is already here, but not in a form we expect. Many browser-based games aren’t that far from muds in gameplay and presentation.
Very interesting interview. Of Course I’ve read most of Kavir’s comments before about his thoughts on the MUD community and GUI. Still a lot of stuff I didn’t know and a lot of insight for me as a programmer personally.
Speaking as a long standing player of this mud, as well as a visually impaired player, I would just like to say that we the player base appreciate all that KaVir has done, and in many ways, his mud has become a second home for me. Less entimetally, anyone who hasn’t already given us a look, you are morally obliged to do so, else you will die in agony, never having experienced the complexity that is Godwarsii.
While I genuinely appreciate what he’s done for the MUD community, I’ve also witnessed a condescending and disrespectful attitude displayed towards quite a few newbie admins on many occasions over the years, and that definately soured my opinion of the guy. Seems a bit full of himself at times, but that isn’t anything new in the MUD community, of course.
Definitely a talented dev and the uniqueniess in GW2 is beyond anything else I’ve seen so far. It’s also very appreciated that he’s acting to improve the experience of MUDs via interactive maps and well-made graphical HUDs that are quite appealing.
Really? Because Kavir’s always been a total knob to me. Just search “Locke” on Mudbytes or Mudconnect. Total character assassination. What a putz!
Herb, I’m also an auditor for The Mud Connector (TMC). If you didn’t want your mud to be audited, you shouldn’t have stripped out the credits and copyright notices and then bragged about it to me on the public TMC forums, particularly after I’d explicitly told you that I was a TMC auditor, and explained that it was my responsibility to audit muds that were reported to me for violating their licences. You effectively reported your own licence violation, what did you expect me to do?
As for your reputation, I’m afraid you have nobody to blame but yourself. If you want to be taken seriously you need to stop claiming credit for other peoples work – not just all the code and design documents you’ve stripped the copyright notices from and passed off as your own, or all the muds you keep claiming have copied you (despite many of them predating yours), but also all your claims about inventing YouTube, naming Microsoft Vista, inspiring a Nobel Prize winner, helping design the Hummer H3, fixing PayPal and helping them sell it to eBay, giving BT the solution to the oil crisis, having a patent-pending for cancer detection software, being involved in Citizens Bank and the PNC Bank Virtual Wallet, adding features to Google, Firefox and Linux, inspiring games like Final Fantasy, Fallout 3, Team Fortress 2, Sims in the City, etc, etc, etc.
Why do you think it is that none of those people offered you a job, or mentioned you in their credits, or even seem to know who you are? Why is it that the Nobel Prize winner you claimed to have inspired doesn’t exist on the list of all Nobel laureates? Why is it that your pending patent doesn’t even have a registration ID? Why do you think your court case against YouTube resulted in you being called “delusional” and “insane”, and was thrown out based on rule 11, which covers “harassment, frivolous arguments, or a lack of factual investigation”?
I have absolutely no control over the administration of The Mud Connector, Top Mud Sites, MudBytes, Samson’s blog, Wikipedia or the Mud Wiki – even as a TMC auditor, my role is limited to emailing audits, the owner of TMC then verifies them and decides the appropriate response (if any). Those sites all independently chose to ban you, for their own reasons. There is no conspiracy, and no benefit in following me around the internet trying to smear my name.
The only person who can restore your reputation is you. Start respecting the rights of other mud developers, and create your own work instead of trying to claim credit for other peoples. You think you’re a competent mud developer? Demonstrate it. Reputations have to be earned, so instead of ranting and complaining start designing and coding. Prove to the mud community that you should be taken seriously. Show that your skills can help bring muds into the 21st century.
Never stripped any credits, man. Credits always appeared in every NiMUD somewhere. This lie needs to stop being told.
Here’s one of the threads where you try to justify removing the credits:
http://www.mudconnect.com/discuss/discuss.cgi?mode=MSG2&area=positions&message=35277&page=1
In particular, you claimed: “The LICENSE is saying that IF YOU ARE RUNNING A DIKUMUD, ie the MUD THAT IS CALLED DIKU THAT IS DISTRIBUTED IN THE PACKAGE DIKUMUD, YOU MUST KEEP THEIR NAMES IN THE CREDITS. OTHERWISE, YOU ARE NOT RUNNING A DIKUMUD, YOU ARE RUNNING CODE DERIVED FROM DIKUMUD AND THEREFORE NOT A TRUE DIKUMUD.”
And later: “I would hope whoever has some beef with me because I refuse to credit them obliquely 17 years later would realize that at some point you have to stick up for yourself. I couldn’t tell you exactly what lines of what files are supposedly DIKUMUD Group work.”
And here’s the thread where you were caught stripping the copyright notices out of the Barren Realms document and adding your own:
http://www.mudconnect.com/discuss/discuss.cgi?mode=MSG2&area=admin_ethics&message=8374&page=0
Here’s where your thread was locked for illegally distributing code.
http://www.topmudsites.com/forums/mud-coding/5595-nimud-5-re-released-under-al-gpl-4.html
Anyone interested in the matter should be able to find many more examples, but this isn’t really the place to go into detail.
Once again I’ll reiterate: if you want to be taken seriously by other mud developers, this really isn’t the best way to go about it. If you don’t like the Diku licence, then why not take a shot at creating your own codebase from scratch? It doesn’t have to be a major project – my first scratch-written mud (Gladiator Pits) was just a tiny entry for the 16K mud competition, but it was still an exciting new learning experience, and paved the way for God Wars II.
Well, I can see there is no point in continuing this conversation. The credits always appeared somewhere among the many files. Citing some flamewar argument doesn’t cut it. Simply go to my source code files, download them, and use them as evidence to make your case. You may cite my “NiMUD Anatomy Document”, where I compare how much of it is original work and how much of it isn’t.
I think you will find some versions do not have Diku on the title screen, but all of them have Diku in the credits, or in the source code, or mentioned somewhere among the files. I’m also tired of this conversation. It’s gone on for 7 years now. People in the DikuMUD community seem overtly interested in calling each other out as thieves. It’s not just me, it happen constantly in that community and Kavir always seems to be there to throw his two cents in, encouraging that. The conclusions of these arguments never occur, they just go on and on and on and in the process a million myths and few facts emerge. They always treat the Medievia incident as some landmark decision, but it’s not. It was the decision of a lower court.
Aside from that, you tried to encourage me to add new stuff to the MUDding community, but I have extremely low interest or motivation to do that now that I’ve been involved in these lengthy debates, always with a personal barb. It was bad enough that people violated my license, when I asked for help with that the ridicule came as well. I guess the community thinks it is judge, jury, sentencer, vigilante and executioner. It was unfair. It remains unfair, and I’m sick of the fights, the arguments, the hurt feelings on my end. When I was just a kid I helped DikuMUD community, and Kavir even though he likes to downplay that, and in reward for that they stuck their names on my software, denied that I ever wrote it, called me a theif and a liar, they insulted me, my friend, his memory (since he is deceased), trapsed around the internet putting my personal data (home address, bank information, personal phone numbers) everywhere, insulting me everywhere, attacked me everywhere. Why should I help this community? Moreover, exactly where would I help them considering Kavir has seen to it that the “infestation” of me has been “exterminated” from all of the major sites in that community?
It was just an audit emailed to the owner of TMC, nothing more. I explicitly told you I was a TMC auditor, and I explained that auditors are responsible for investigating licence violations. If you didn’t want me to audit your mud, why did you respond to my comments about auditors by telling me that a large percentage of your mud was still stock Diku and then state (and I quote) “I will still not put DikuMUD in the credits command”? What did you honestly expect me to do? Did you really think you were special, that I would treat your mud differently to all the other muds I’ve audited?
Even then, all you had to do was restore the missing credits and your listing was reactivated – like many other muds I’ve audited over the years. But instead of dropping the issue and moving on, you decided to follow me around the internet trying to badmouth me for the perceived slight, and now it’s snowballed. I didn’t ban you from TMC, TMS, MudBytes, MUD Wiki, or any of those other sites – you brought that upon yourself with your relentless smear campaign. All I did was audit your mud, technically at your own request. I really think it’s time for you to recognise that the audit was nothing personal, put this behind you, and move on.
It’s not me that must move on. You are the one who systematically attacks me on every single site, if you are Kavir. If you aren’t, then I have no idea who you are. Either way, I usually just come to post an announcement about a release, or a new service or a new project. It’s you and your cronies who attack me incessantly, and it is “Kavir”‘s actions that bans me from sites.
Your tactic is pretty simple: you try to claim I did the thing you are doing, and you claim I’m doing the thing to you, first. It’s not that way. But, go ahead and keep repeating it. It seems to be working, and I’m sure you’re happy to smear me everywhere. I do not “smear” your name when I come to MudConnect.com and post about a new service, or have my friends post. I do not “expose” you on sites or ban you from sites. You do that to me. But the only people that really care are you, your other pseudonyms, and Cratylus, Tyche and Davion, Tijer, Samson and whomever else. The pattern is simple: you all own the sites, you all distribute software, and you all gang up on me relentlessly. Even in this last email you have implied nothing was done. That is not the case, and this was resolved YEARS ago, yet you still slander me with your implications that I did not respond to anything, and I still argue that I really never had to do anything to begin with.
Another tactic you use is avoidance: you avoid facts that dissuade people from your argument. You fail to respond to the things I say that might actually help my case in the eyes of readers. You like to do that because it helps you feel empowered that you can control the situation and avoid being held accountable. Well, since there is nothing more for me to do about it, and nothing that can be done about your systematic bullying of me and my endeavors, my friends and business partners and family, I suppose you win. What you win is not that I concede, not that I accept and “will reform” since there is nothing to reform, but rather that you simply win the game of screw Herb Gilliland. Congratulations.
YouTube
I have no further comment on this matter. Read my case and decide for yourself.
naming Microsoft Vista
Who cares about Microsoft Vista?
inspiring a Nobel Prize winner
It turned out she never won the Nobel Prize. Stop bringing it up.
helping design the Hummer H3
I worked for GM and Intel while doing research at Carnegie Mellon University. What does it have to do with ‘mudding’? Very little.
fixing PayPal and helping them sell it to eBay
I did help PayPal fraud because it benefited me. It’s also irrelevant. It was already being discussed re: eBay at the time, I’m sure adding those features did help the sale, but what difference does this make?
giving BT the solution to the oil crisis
I really have no idea what you are talking about?
having a patent-pending for cancer detection software
This is verifiable. I held a provisional patent in 2008-2009.
being involved in Citizens Bank
Yeah I’m an ex-customer!
the PNC Bank Virtual Wallet
Yes, I have been involved, and it is my account! I’ve lived in Pittsburgh for my entire life excepting 6 months in California and 3 months in NYC, and some time spent in Raleigh, NC.
adding features to Google
Haven’t we all?
Firefox and Linux
inspiring games like Final Fantasy
I didn’t ‘inspire the game’ but one of their characters is very similar to my character Locke that created OLC, during my short-lived fame as an RPG developer back when that title was coming out
Fallout 3
I didn’t ‘inspire the game’ but I do have several friends on the original dev team (Jay Woodward, Fred Zeleny) and they did include some things I requested as a fan of the series.
Team Fortress 2
My friend Dr. Martin C Martin was on the dev team.
Sims in the City
You mean “URBZ: Sims in the City”
Herb, the key is in your very first sentence about KaVir: “to me.”
Although he won’t know me by the name I am signing this as (my real first name) I have corresponded with him (actually about his combat system) on TMC and he was very kind and friendly. And I’m not going to debate whether or not you stripped credits or not but KaVir is well known and respected for a reason. Just because you don’t like him does not mean he’s not respected (and deservedly so) by and large in the MUD community.
There were some players on the MUD I am a programmer and designer for (and am re-writing from scratch as a new base where as old had credits given it was circle-based) that did not like me not only because I put their …. in the freezer or muted them or whatever else, but the bottom line is: you not liking Richard or any one else does not mean any thing to any one who can think for themselves. It goes the other way around, btw. Indeed, just because many may not like you does not mean everyone dislikes you.
KaVir, although I knew a lot of the stuff you mentioned in the interview (I’ve written or rather referred to Gladiator Pits, actually) and although I know I would have thanked you in the past for the correspondence I want to say thank you for your contributions to the MUD community. I may have not personally played God Wars (I or II) but I know the wonderful reviews it has been given is well deserved*. As far as I am aware it still has a hefty player base and I find that really quite impressive. Granted there were some issues in the MUD I work on and my creations there made it last as long as it did (it’s still up since 1994 just the player base is mostly gone albeit there’s some old players interested in the rewrite) the fact remains very few play but it’s a wonderful thing to know that some MUDs still have a decent player base.
*I know you like more dynamics in the game and I am with you there. I cannot stand (pardon the word play) in a MUD seeing “You are standing …” (yet I was playing with a character that is almost always flying) and I too like to make things as dynamic as possible.
Any way – could go on and on but the point is the same either way: keep up the good work and thanks for the conversation(s) on the TMC (I don’t even remember what name I used to be honest) years back.
Oh, good grief Locke..not again. Over 18 months since the article and you decide to bring your insane ranting crap NOW?
Have you nothing else in your life but this?
Agghhh!
*goes to hunt down Dean to discuss how Herb=troll in internet language*
I’m pretty sure I’m well versed on the subject, hehe.
I’m not in the habit of deleting comments though and I think (or hope), anyone with half a brain can see that Herb is full of hot air.
*mutters*
Fine, fine…but I am -not- sharing my coffee with him.